It's here, at last. The origin of the Red Hulk! What many of you have been waiting for since HULK #1. And rather than do a direct review, which I don't think would be nearly interesting enough, let's take ten key points about this issue: what I loved, what I hated, and what just didn't make any sense. How can this issue fail to disappoint? Or can it? Ready? Go!
1. What the #@*! happened? In perhaps the most radical disconnect in this series since INCREDIBLE HULK #600 had Banner suddenly captured by MODOK at AIM's very own Gamma Base, we join ol' Thunderbolt when he wakes up in a room with the Cosmic Hulk. What happened after last issue's climax, where we discovered his secret just as he discovered his daughter Betty's? Did he pass out right then, and she tossed him aside to the Intel to have them lock him up? The thought seems utterly ridiculous that just as Betty discovered her father was alive, that she would just abandon him. I mean, it may be in-character to have her do just that, why are we not privy to that information? It makes little sense other than to have the dual revelations last month be a "good conclusion" for that issue and Ross' waking be a "good opener" for this issue. At the least, some better scripting could have filled in the gaps.
2. Sale good, dialogue bad. The origin of Red Hulk jumps from the childhood trauma that made him distrustful of doctors (I suppose all doctors are the same to Ross, from physicians to college professors, to scientists. Sigh.), over everything shown in INCREDIBLE HULK #291 (see last blog post!), to the events depicted in HULK:GRAY. That's right--it's not the events of INCREDIBLE HULK #1 to which Loeb refers, but the ham-fisted regurgitation of those events which apparently retconned the gray Hulk into the same inarticulate brute that his green self would, years later, become. Sale's art is terrific, as always, looking like it comes right out of the aforementioned series, and I suppose thematically it has to connect with that series right down to the dialogue--but the bottom line is, this is wrong and I don't like it.
3. Covet not thy nerdy scientist's gamma'd-up power. So, Ross saw the early Hulk as a "weapon of mass destruction" whose power he coveted. What then explains his fascination with destroying the beast? Has he felt these many years it was his God-given duty to destroy the creature, to prove that the might of the United States military was greater than that of some post-modern Prometheus turned monster? "Might makes right" is a very slight characterization to make. True, it may seem that with the Hulk, strength is the only language that matters. I guess it's the best characterization that makes sense in the pages permitted.
4. Sal Buscema still rocks. Even with an artistic snafu of sorts (Hulk needed shorts in that flashback to INCREDIBLE HULK #289!), Sal Buscema is still the classic Hulk artist to beat. In three pages, he flashed back to the events surrounding Ross' first treasonous actions in INCREDIBLE HULK #287-291. Solid storytelling, this.
5. Finally, a point for Loeb. "The treason charges were never filed." Ah, what this does to explain that Ross could be reinstated to the military following his resurrection by the Troyjans. So, Ross resigned his commission a second time shortly after INCREDIBLE HULK #291, being disgraced privately. Samson, under AIM's influence, testified that everything he did was under MODOK's suggestion. It's a small thing, but it worked.
6. And a point for the Leader. So, the Leader resurrected Ross as the Redeemer, which we knew, but he wasn't as much a vegetable as we thought. Shouldn't this fact engender a hatred of the Leader above and beyond any hatred for Banner? Ross knew everything that was happening when he was Redeemer, but couldn't react to any of it. You know, it makes what Ross does to the Leader at the end of the issue all the sweeter a victory. But I'm getting ahead of myself, aren't I? Ah, and those Churchill pages were pretty decent. It's good to again see his traditional "cut and rendered" style here.
7. "So, three guys are in a bar..." The scene where the Leader and MODOK offer Ross his daughter's resurrection in return for his loyalty is delicious and well-timed (right after the death of Captain America). It was totally obvious that they'd dangle Betty before him, but the scene still plays well. Leinil Yu does a fair job on the art for these pages, as does John Romita Jr. on the pages that encompass WORLD WAR HULK. (Note that as in RED HULK #3, the event is referred to as the "Ground Zero Event.")
8. McGuinness triumphs in that metamorphosis shot. Ross into Rulk, and away go the eyebrows and mustache. A brilliant two-page spread. That is all.
9. And Mike Deodato is spectacularly wasted. And I don't mean he was drunk when he drew these pages. Most of what Mike drew on these pages amounts to homage after homage, redrawn page after redrawn page of events that occurred over the course of the proper "Red Hulk" saga. He redraws McGuinness' pages, he redraws Romita Jr.'s pages, and in between he helps Loeb fill in some gaps regarding who killed Clay Quartermain and why (well done), whose voice it was coming out of the Ross LMD at the end of issue #6, and the whys and wherefores of the Banner/Red Hulk alliance. Yet, for all the eager gap-filling, we still don't know what Banner said to Ross way back in issue #2! Sigh.
10. I never liked Talbot, anyway. So, there's the matter of that last page. Who remembers Greg Pak's INCREDIBLE HULK #608? Then look at the last page of this issue and tell me that's possible. Yeah, that's what I thought. Now, it's true that Amadeus Cho told a little story about Talbot doing some black ops work, so that may mean he's really still alive somewhere else, but wow. A double reverse. Can we have a decent explanation for this one, please? I'd hate to think that Bannertech really isn't worth a damn. At least I can say that's one powerful way to finish an issue, even if it makes no sense.
So, what do you think, sirs?
~G.
1. What the #@*! happened? In perhaps the most radical disconnect in this series since INCREDIBLE HULK #600 had Banner suddenly captured by MODOK at AIM's very own Gamma Base, we join ol' Thunderbolt when he wakes up in a room with the Cosmic Hulk. What happened after last issue's climax, where we discovered his secret just as he discovered his daughter Betty's? Did he pass out right then, and she tossed him aside to the Intel to have them lock him up? The thought seems utterly ridiculous that just as Betty discovered her father was alive, that she would just abandon him. I mean, it may be in-character to have her do just that, why are we not privy to that information? It makes little sense other than to have the dual revelations last month be a "good conclusion" for that issue and Ross' waking be a "good opener" for this issue. At the least, some better scripting could have filled in the gaps.
2. Sale good, dialogue bad. The origin of Red Hulk jumps from the childhood trauma that made him distrustful of doctors (I suppose all doctors are the same to Ross, from physicians to college professors, to scientists. Sigh.), over everything shown in INCREDIBLE HULK #291 (see last blog post!), to the events depicted in HULK:GRAY. That's right--it's not the events of INCREDIBLE HULK #1 to which Loeb refers, but the ham-fisted regurgitation of those events which apparently retconned the gray Hulk into the same inarticulate brute that his green self would, years later, become. Sale's art is terrific, as always, looking like it comes right out of the aforementioned series, and I suppose thematically it has to connect with that series right down to the dialogue--but the bottom line is, this is wrong and I don't like it.
3. Covet not thy nerdy scientist's gamma'd-up power. So, Ross saw the early Hulk as a "weapon of mass destruction" whose power he coveted. What then explains his fascination with destroying the beast? Has he felt these many years it was his God-given duty to destroy the creature, to prove that the might of the United States military was greater than that of some post-modern Prometheus turned monster? "Might makes right" is a very slight characterization to make. True, it may seem that with the Hulk, strength is the only language that matters. I guess it's the best characterization that makes sense in the pages permitted.
4. Sal Buscema still rocks. Even with an artistic snafu of sorts (Hulk needed shorts in that flashback to INCREDIBLE HULK #289!), Sal Buscema is still the classic Hulk artist to beat. In three pages, he flashed back to the events surrounding Ross' first treasonous actions in INCREDIBLE HULK #287-291. Solid storytelling, this.
5. Finally, a point for Loeb. "The treason charges were never filed." Ah, what this does to explain that Ross could be reinstated to the military following his resurrection by the Troyjans. So, Ross resigned his commission a second time shortly after INCREDIBLE HULK #291, being disgraced privately. Samson, under AIM's influence, testified that everything he did was under MODOK's suggestion. It's a small thing, but it worked.
6. And a point for the Leader. So, the Leader resurrected Ross as the Redeemer, which we knew, but he wasn't as much a vegetable as we thought. Shouldn't this fact engender a hatred of the Leader above and beyond any hatred for Banner? Ross knew everything that was happening when he was Redeemer, but couldn't react to any of it. You know, it makes what Ross does to the Leader at the end of the issue all the sweeter a victory. But I'm getting ahead of myself, aren't I? Ah, and those Churchill pages were pretty decent. It's good to again see his traditional "cut and rendered" style here.
7. "So, three guys are in a bar..." The scene where the Leader and MODOK offer Ross his daughter's resurrection in return for his loyalty is delicious and well-timed (right after the death of Captain America). It was totally obvious that they'd dangle Betty before him, but the scene still plays well. Leinil Yu does a fair job on the art for these pages, as does John Romita Jr. on the pages that encompass WORLD WAR HULK. (Note that as in RED HULK #3, the event is referred to as the "Ground Zero Event.")
8. McGuinness triumphs in that metamorphosis shot. Ross into Rulk, and away go the eyebrows and mustache. A brilliant two-page spread. That is all.
9. And Mike Deodato is spectacularly wasted. And I don't mean he was drunk when he drew these pages. Most of what Mike drew on these pages amounts to homage after homage, redrawn page after redrawn page of events that occurred over the course of the proper "Red Hulk" saga. He redraws McGuinness' pages, he redraws Romita Jr.'s pages, and in between he helps Loeb fill in some gaps regarding who killed Clay Quartermain and why (well done), whose voice it was coming out of the Ross LMD at the end of issue #6, and the whys and wherefores of the Banner/Red Hulk alliance. Yet, for all the eager gap-filling, we still don't know what Banner said to Ross way back in issue #2! Sigh.
10. I never liked Talbot, anyway. So, there's the matter of that last page. Who remembers Greg Pak's INCREDIBLE HULK #608? Then look at the last page of this issue and tell me that's possible. Yeah, that's what I thought. Now, it's true that Amadeus Cho told a little story about Talbot doing some black ops work, so that may mean he's really still alive somewhere else, but wow. A double reverse. Can we have a decent explanation for this one, please? I'd hate to think that Bannertech really isn't worth a damn. At least I can say that's one powerful way to finish an issue, even if it makes no sense.
So, what do you think, sirs?
~G.
Have to say your comments are pretty accurate. About the Talbolt LMD. My hunch is the Real Talbolt does exist. The Intel did not want to use the real Talbolt during these events in case anything went wrong. They didn't tell Ross about the black ops divison and that is why Bruce did not know either. It is also curious why the black ops allowed the Soviet Red Ghost inside their base. This is also the first time the public knew Talbolt was alive. If things went wrong then they would still think he is dead and the black ops connection stays unknown. Your thoughts?
ReplyDeletePretty much my thoughts precisely re: Talbot. They're leaving the possibilities open. Sadly, simply put there are plot holes large enough to drive Humvees through. Loeb had a chance to shine, and once again he bungled it, doing a serviceable job but nothing more.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Jeph Loeb convinced the gray Hulk used the caveman syntax? Or is he now just trying to preserve continuity with his other project, HULK: GRAY?
~G.
The Long Halloween was the template for alot of his work. It had a downside to his writing in some ways. He keeps making gimmicks just to keep the reader guessing. That would be fine if he could fit things consistently like he did there. Now he just looks for reasons to confuse people. If you think about it the ending of the Long Halloween was the start of this pattern. Harvey's wife never came back in his later stories so Loeb didn't clear up the ending. Dark Victory already showed signs of these future problems.
ReplyDeleteGentlemen, I enjoyed the issue tremendously! I do think that you are right, they are keeping their options open (they could be) doing the old switch and bait between real and LMD Talbot. They defintely should have shown the Ross/Zzaxx incident to show that Ross can handle having super-powers as a precursor to being Red Hulk. Very solid issue. In July's issue of Marvel Preview it confirms that from Hulk #25 that Jeff Parker and Gabriel are taking over. Looks like Jeff listened to me after all. Though I won't be celebrating just yet in case something changes. Warmest regards! King Hulk Marco PS Well done Zeno, I really enjoyed your comments.
ReplyDeleteSorry forgot to add Gabriel's surname (which as you know is) Hardman. On what Marvel are using as a test cover, they have Iron Man (new suit natch) standing over a prone, black hulking figure. Could be Red Hulk blacked out or, it could be The Living Shadow from The Incredible Hulk #184 (story by Len Wein)as the contingency plan of Leader & MODOK. NOTE - The Living Shadow would later return to be destroyed by Captain Universe.
ReplyDeleteNOTE - This is the test cover for Hulk #25 that I am talking about. Also note Zeno this ties in with your theory.
ReplyDeleteAlso note in Incredible Hulk #185 (again by Len Wein) Ross faces and the defeats the Hulk while wearing a 10 ton suit of armour.
ReplyDeleteThe Hulk on the cover of Hulk #25 is the Red Hulk. Nobody else bleeds like that. (Although Iron Man really doesn't even remember what Red Hulk did to him enough to justify that kind of beating.) He'll be sticking around after next issue, but lord knows how, considering his status at the end of #23. Our boy Ross has gone round the bend loonytunes. Maybe he absorbed the Leader's penchant for half-baked plans along with his gamma power in this last outing?
ReplyDeleteRight now we only know that Jeff & Gabe are doing #25. Anything more than that is premature.
I wouldn't call #23 remotely good, considering the plot holes, the sloppy scripting, the continuity errors (though there was an awful lot he did get right). Your mileage may vary. The art was decent, though as before, Deodato was wasted.
~G.
Well Gary, I did like it. If that puts me in the minority that is fine by me. I am used to backing the underdog anyway. The problems you mentioned can be easily fixed. In July's Marvel's preview it states that Jeff and Gabriel are the new creative team from Hulk #25. Whether the Loeb created title continue's long term or is cancelled after loose ends are tied up like Marvel did with Son of Hulk once Jenkins took over is another matter. I do think it is Red Hulk that Iron Man is beating up on. I mentioned The Living Shadow in case Marvel do a switcheroo at the last minute. I do like to keep my options open after what happened over the last few months with the Hulk family of titles.
ReplyDeleteI think I might give Hulk #23 a 5 or 6 on a 10 point scale. Average or just above, because of so many things both big (HULK: GRAY) and little. I'm still unconvinced Talbot was really just an LMD. There's still one issue left so a lot could happen.
ReplyDeletePart of the trouble comes from the kind of writer Jeph Loeb is vs. what kind of writer Greg Pak is. Loeb is primarily an artist's writer--which is why so many artists love working with him. He'll take your idea and let you go wild drawing it. That's not always the best way to spin a narrative. It's like having a director steer someone else's screenplay.
Greg's book has the emotional punch it needed to have. Loeb's book did what it needed to and not much more.
Eh. Not a bad issue, but still plenty of problems.
~G.
I too prefer Pak's work to Jeph Loeb's. Has previously mentioned Loeb is a fantastic idea's man. He's just not that good at making those idea's work for the betterment of the story. Jeph Loeb should still be involved with the Hulk family of books, giving his ideas/opinions and letting other writers run with it. I would rate the issue as a 6-7 out of 10 due to the content and the amazing artwork that covered the Hulk's history. PS Have you purchased the latest FF book? If you haven't I will reveal a big spoiler here :- Drum roll please! Bruce Banner's third son becomes the new Maestro. This is the character that first appears in Old Man Logan mini series as a baby, then as a young man in the Fantastic Force mini series. Now in the FF. Not sure if the Maestro teaming up with Kang against the Avengers is the original Maestro or the new Maestro. Warmest regards! King Hulk Marco
ReplyDeleteEep! You had to ruin FF for me!
ReplyDeleteThe Maestro in Avengers isn't the Maestro really--he's the alternate future Hulk from the Lionsgate movie "Next Avengers: Heroes of Tomorrow."
And th-th-that's all from me today, folks!
~G.
Sorry!. Thought it best you heard it from me, just in case you weren't buying the FF. Really? This Maestro is the Hulk from Next Avengers : Heroes of Tomorrow? I thought he got to live happily ever after with Betty? What could make him go bad after that? So now we have three Maestro's in the MU? Awesome! Team Maestro vs Team Hulk anbody? Believe it or not, Peter David covered this eventuality in his excellent novel What Savage Beast. Warmest regards! King Hulk Marco
ReplyDeletePS When are you coming over Gary to do some stuff over at Dailypop's site? I am looking for a bit of the old Miller Magic here! Also, have you had anybody at Marvel comeback to you yet to offer you a job?
ReplyDeleteHeh, I think it'll take more than your say-so for someone at Marvel to hunt me down. Right now I'm toiling with some short stories, hoping to get published, and hopefully break in via my writing elsewhere. As for Dailypop--that's up to them.
ReplyDeleteAnd I won't get FF until Tuesday--with the exception of picking up my Hulk-related books the day of release, most of my books arrive the following week. But the mail-order discount can't be beat.
~G.
I was thinking Gary because you have been doing this stuff for a good while if you have had any interest from any company relating to any paid writing gigs? That is all. Also Gary I didn't ask Marvel to give you a job. What I did do was use your Red Hulk Theory to illustrate that the big reveal wasn't that much of a surprise. I would have thought that someone would have contacted you and at least given you a well done. Regarding subscriptions, I take it is through Marvel then? Warmest regards! King Hulk Marco
ReplyDeleteGary, Daily P.O.P. here. I'm totally digging your reviews! I've been running my own blog as well since about '07 and I think we are sympatico on many things.
ReplyDelete(and I agree that while I never know when they will arrive, getting a mail order sub from Marvel is so cheap it cannot be beat)
Drop me a line when you can!
Good work Jameson. Very proud of you sir. Can't wait to see what you two come up with. Warmest regards! King Hulk Marco
ReplyDeleteActually, my books come mail-order via the fine folks at Discount Comic Book Service. I get a weekly shipment that arrives UPS. It was nicer when I lived back east--the books arrived by Friday. Here out west I have to wait a bit longer.
ReplyDeleteJameson, I'll drop you a line later in the week!
As for Marvel...I've got interview contacts, of course. I could say more but then I'd have to kill you.:D
And, oh yeah, I met Jeph in January, well, for maybe the third time, but first time since the Red Hulk debuted. Pretty sure I told you guys.:)
~G.
I am totally with you on Loeb's ludicrous retcon from Hulk: Grey. At least Joe Casey portrayed the Hulk reasonably accurately in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes (as smart and surly). I view Hulk: Gray as a bad "dream" story, or maybe as Banner's memory gone looney-tunes (in what he relates to Samson). But now Loeb has the nerve to try to bring part of that story into the mainstream Hulk continuity. That story needs to be killed and fast.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have a problem with Hulk: Gray if it weren't portrayed as a What If? story or something like that; but it's just WRONG. For anyone who doubts this, take a look at Hulk # 1-6 (even in green form, he was still smart for a while); FF 12; Avengers 1-3 & 5; Journey into Mystery 112; Fantastic Four 25-26. It wasn't until the Tales to Astonish run (with Steve Ditko) that Lee re-envisioned the Hulk as a moronic brute. Loeb's idiocy is all the more apparent when one reads Peter David's excellent early issues (though David also loses it, big time, in Incredible Hulk: Destruction, a real letdown of a story).
-- Dennis Lee
Sorry, meant to say "I wouldn't have a problem with Hulk: Gray if it HAD BEEN portrayed as a What If? story or something like that; but AS PART OF MAINSTREAM CONTINUITY, it's just WRONG".
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, Hulk: Destruction is also totally off (i.e. Abomination first appeared in Tales to Astonish # 90, 51 issues before Doc Samson's premiere in Hulk 141; yet, here, David who is usually good with continuity, has Samson pre-date Abom). Like Hulk: Destruction, Hulk: Gray should be definitively established as NOT being part of "canon" or "official continuity."
-- Dennis Lee